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Oct 9, 2023
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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

love that Chiang story (and the quote); he is definitely a big influence on my thinking here.

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atomless's avatar

Not often I subscribe to someone’s substack based on a comment, Brian. But that just did it.

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Eharding's avatar

"As for what this maturation process involves, Mckenna has two ideas: it will require us to become like children and it will require psychedelics…lots and lots of psychedelics."

No need. Just do the Russian physical therapy:

https://eharding.substack.com/p/why-does-russian-physical-therapy

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Cliff Marticorena's avatar

I really enjoyed this read. Mind bending thoughts and ideas. Well written.

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

thanks dude!

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testing's avatar

I enjoyed your post, but i’m left with some questions. Without a clear definition of what is and is not ideology, it is difficult to understand the implications of decoupling. What do you believe changed before and after these events, at the psychological level? More deeply, what does this mean epistemologically? Couldn’t this post be considered an ideology itself, subject to memetic forces, and therefore untrustworthy as Mckenna suggests? Reductionist, I’m sure, but it’s an easy assertion to make from your post, elaboration would be illuminating. What do you(or mckenna) suggest take the place of ideology? again I am unsure where you put boundaries between that term and the rest of thought specifically-or is there any, given your post on living ideas? Can Ideas be trusted?

none of these questions are rhetorical, I want to know. If you read all this, thank you for your time.

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

These are all great questions and the answer to all of them is yes.

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

"Can Ideas be trusted?" - except for this one. The answer to this one is that ideas are like people, some can and some can't.

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testing's avatar

could you elborate?

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

I'd strongly prefer not to. The work stands on its own.

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Amin Sennour's avatar

Fantastic post, thank you for writing this!

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

:)

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Ted Wade's avatar

Beautiful work. Also enjoyed the exposure to McKenna and the prescient novella from Chiang. Tragically, we won’t see how the war of the many ideologies comes out because said war will prevent us from resolving our multiple environmental crises. As I’ve said now for many years: excrement eventuates.

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

Thanks, Ted! Hoping you are wrong but it ain't looking good...

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Harrison Thiry's avatar

Thank you for the challenging but enjoyable read! The link to the source of the final quote that you shared on developing a new language is now dead. I found the quote fascinating. Do you happen to know where I might find the source?

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

Thanks! Haha it is definitely challenging for a random blog post, props to you and anyone who made it to the end. The link works for me but it takes a while to load (a wayback machine link). The quotes are from the Ted Chiang story, "Understand", which is excellent (obviously). Here's a link to ebook version I found - https://ebooks.qumran.org/opds/index.php?lang=en&pageformat=html&action=bookdetails&book=879

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Randall Hayes's avatar

That bit about vision being important for driving more complexity has some interesting parallels.

https://knowablemagazine.org/article/mind/2021/are-spiders-intelligent

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atomless's avatar

Such a great post. Thank you!

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

Thanks James :)

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atomless's avatar

I mean, a contender to be among my favourite long reads of the year.

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

That's so great to hear - it's definitely not a light read and I was worried people wouldn't follow all the twists and turns so I'm happy at least one person got through it all ;)

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atomless's avatar

I’ve long been obsessed by cultural evolution. I think it began from an interest in fashion as a spread of ideas, in my very early teens. As a sci-fi nerd, in my late teens I was lucky enough to come across the work of Greg Eagan, whose works feel very much part of a lineage that lead to those of Chiang. Your paradoxical suggestion of “a fanatical devotion to the avoidance of fanatical devotion” lands smack bang onto the notion explored by Egan in the final story of Axiomatic, the first collection of short stories he published. The story is titled, UNSTABLE ORBITS IN THE SPACE OF LIES. In case you’ve not yet read it, I’ll say no more --other than Axiomatic’s definitely one of those books where I envy all those that have not yet read it, for the experience of first reading it that awaits them.

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Roger’s Bacon's avatar

Ohhh I'm intrigued, haven't read any Egan but heard good things, putting it on the list...

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atomless's avatar

I’m there with you on “the list” problem https://atomless.substack.com/p/reading-list-bankruptcy

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atomless's avatar

But honestly that story of Egan’s is so bang on in regard to your “devotion to the avoidance of fanatical devotion” it is uncanny

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